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PKR TexasTee finally has a new knee!

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Thank you for your reply I was interested based on how far my leg bends before pain but if Mua is best by 9weeks that window has gone for me anyway
I wish you all the best and that it goes well and look forward to your report after


20/01/2015
 
@Homeport - please understand that this window is my OS's opinion, I have no idea if it extends to the greater surgical community! I was honestly a bit flat footed when he said he wanted to do the MUA yesterday - I had thought my recovery was pretty great and that I was proceeding well so I was fully planning to go to work on Monday. I hadn't really even done any research into it - which is very unlike me, I'm kind of a research nut. I'm mostly going on faith here in that he said (even in my first meeting when I asked him!) that he rarely does MUAs - this isn't a go to for him, my case calls for it in his opinion so I'm trusting what I do know - his reputation and his experience. Your situation will be entirely your own. Has your surgeon expressed any concern with your ROM?
 
Teresa's situation is unique to her and her surgeon alone. She's younger than many who have a knee replacement and she wants to be more active than a lot of us.
There are often differences of opinion about techniques and treatment amongst the surgeons, often due to the different experiences they have during training and practice.

However, I would like to say two things:
  1. It is unusual for a MUA to be considered once the ROM is past 90 degrees;
  2. There is no time limit to when a MUA can be done and nothing to be lost by waiting longer than 7-9 weeks.
Normally, at 2 months post-op, internal soft tissues are still healing and there is still some degree of internal swelling, even if it is not obvious, which still limits ROM.
 
Theresa, good luck with your MUA. I hope all goes well for you. My remarks on Vinny's thread about bilaterals were not intended to be directed toward anyone. I'm sorry if there was any misunderstanding.
I have read bits and pieces of your recovery thread and am in awe of all you have been able to accomplish with your new knees!
 
It seems based on what very little I know that Theresa's situation is unusual in that she represents the more active and often younger patient who wishes a range of motion that matches her desired life-style. There is a bell curve in all of this and although she MAY have a greater range of motion over time, one does not know where she is on the bell curve and any hasty generalization about her condition based on the experience of others seems risky: one person's experience is not that of another and without reference to a body of literature (and that itself is a problem for active and especially younger TKR patients) about improved range of motion over time, then how can Theresa be advised?

Her surgeon is the one who has to has to perform the procedure and she is the one who has to accept the results. And, I would guess his/her experience about when to do such a procedure is based on his/her clinical experience and probably what science exists about the expected gains in ROM for her situation. It does not take much searching of the literature to find examples that would suggest an earlier MUA For example,

"Stiffness following total knee arthroplasty is a disabling complication. One of the management options of stiffness includes manipulation under anaesthesia, but no real consensus exist on appropriate timing of intervention, and the timing and results of the manipulation under anaesthesia (MUA) are under debate in the literature. Our aim was to determine the efficacy of single and multiple manipulations under anaesthesia following total knee arthroplasty and to determine the most appropriate timing for manipulation.

We retrospectively reviewed 86 patients who underwent manipulation for stiffness following primary total knee replacement with at least 1-year follow-up. Range of motion before surgery, at the time of the MUA, immediately after MUA and at 6 weeks and 1 year post-MUA were recorded. At the end of 1 year post-manipulation, manipulations performed at less than 20 weeks, following primary total knee arthroplasty, showed 31° of flexion gain as compared to only 1.5° of flexion gain when manipulation was undertaken after 20 weeks.

Of the 86 patients, 21 had multiple manipulations with no significant difference in flexion gain after the second manipulation. Patients on warfarin (26 %) had an increased incidence of stiffness and poor flexion gain. This study showed that better results were achieved when manipulation was performed at less than 20 weeks (particularly between 12 and 14 weeks) from primary surgery with no added benefit from re-manipulations."

It would be useful to know about Celle statement:
"There is no time limit to when a MUA can be done and nothing to be lost by waiting longer than 7-9 weeks."
No doubt there is some evidence to support this, but I think it is not too hard to find work that suggests a shorter rather than longer time period for an MUA is more desirable, for example the above 2014 publication.

Ultimately, we choose a surgeon and work with them based on their clinical experience and our assessment of how that experience tracks with our needs. If Theresa needs/wants more ROM and her surgeon believes that it can best be achieved by an MUA at this point in her recovery, then where is the science to contradict moving forward?

One value of Bonesmart is the sharing of experiences so that we can understand what we share and what is unique to our condition. It helps to make sense of what is happening to us and what we need to do to achieve the quality of life that we desire after knee replacement.
 
Teresa I am very sorry if I offended you.....it certainly was not my intent to upset you and I wish you only the very best.....my posts have been moved to a more appropriate thread....I wanted to apologize on the public forum rather than a private message..

Vinny
 
Vinny - you absolutely did NOT offend me - I wondered if it were my case you were thinking about in your statement, that's all. I find that when I have a question, it's much more straight forward to just ask it than to assume you were talking about me and possibly misjudge what you were saying. I knew going forward with this would not be a popular choice but well, I'm not here to be popular! Thanks Charlotte for stopping by.

I don't think I've quite fit the BS model since I arrived but that's ok, I am probably more representational of the newer trend - high impact sports, performed often, from a young age hasn't been a widespread thing for all that many generations - parents were not able to support such a thing - my Mom's generation's parents went thru the depression! So - this is new, the newer generations of folks are also used to modern medicine keeping up with them and are not as likely to be in pain for 20 years while we cripple ourselves waiting for the right "time" in someone elses opinion!

Thank you Metalheart!! I do think there is a decent bit of information out there that points to early intervention but again, you can find a report or study to support just about any point of view. I was hesitant to try to "defend" my choice and look like I was recommending what I think is right for me to others. I'm absolutely not - whether it works or doesn't work, this is something that each person has to decide for themselves. Moderators are full of good intentions but it simply is not a decision that can be, or should be, made by anyone but the patient. I do think more attention should be paid to sweeping generalizations that are often made here. Just my opinion.

Thanks again to everyone for their input - if I like it if I don't, doesn't matter - it's nice that you all care about the outcome and what is best for me.
 
Hi Teresa, I am finally catching up on all my BS forums and just wanted to say I wish you all the best on Tuesday and I hope it helps you to achieve your goals, because this is what it's all about , it's YOUR goals and expectations!


Brenda aka Bionic B
 
Yes I wish you the best too I think that you can generalise too much about age and peoples abilities my knee replacement are directly the high impact accident while sailing on 40 ft yacht we had chartered I jumped to shore missed and grabbed the rails on boat and both knees smacked into the side of the boat I think there are lot of people on this site that don't want to give up on high impact sport and age has little to do with it
Age has no relevance I fully expect to go back to sailing cycling fencing and high impact sports and I am 62


20/01/2015
 
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Teresa, you also had a PKR which may differ in your surgeon's expectations for ROM at this point in recovery? I don't know if greater ROM is or should be expected in the case of a PKR vs a TKR. Either way, you do what you and your OS feel is right for you! Good luck on Tuesday.
 
Theresa's situation is unusual in that she represents the more active and often younger patient who wishes a range of motion that matches her desired life-style.
I think that's something of a myth - there are folk in their 90s who would compete well with the 'more active and younger patient'.
I would guess his/her experience about when to do such a procedure is based on his/her clinical experience and probably what science exists about the expected gains in ROM for her situation. No doubt there is some evidence to support this, but I think it is not too hard to find work that suggests a shorter rather than longer time period for an MUA is more desirable.
Actually there is very little empirical study of any value out there on this topic and those that exist tend to have very small cohorts such are the one you quoted that had a mere 86 patients. The 'evidence' from such a study would most likely be ignored by any reputable surgeon.
One value of Bonesmart is the sharing of experiences so that we can understand what we share and what is unique to our condition.
But this again is a very small cohort of individuals. Opinion is not evidence - okay I invariably give my opinion but at least it's backed up by years of experience in numerous hospitals up and down the UK and with a considerable number of hip and knee surgeons.
I don't think I've quite fit the BS model since I arrived
LOL I not awfully sure there IS a BoneSmart model, is there?
you also had a PKR which may differ in your surgeon's expectations for ROM at this point in recovery? I don't know if greater ROM is or should be expected in the case of a PKR vs a TKR.
Not in the least.

Finally I would just say this: Celle got her information from me and I would wholeheartedly agree that there is no 'window of opportunity' for an MUA. This lady had an MUA done a year after surgery and it was reasonably successful ROM: it's never too late to get more ROM!. In my career I have known people have MUAs any stage up to 18 months after surgery with varying degrees of success. But the 'varying degrees of success' apply to any MUA whether done early or late.

In reference to having an MUA done early, there are two a pretty good studies regarding this vexed topic but at least they had a fairly decent cohort - and I quote

2,762 Total Knee Replacements during that time he did 30 MUAs (1.086%) - when compared to the ones that did not have and MUA there were no significant differences.

37 manipulations in 767 consecutive primary total knee arthroplasties (TKAs) were analyzed to identify any predictors of manipulation outcome.

Manipulation was most effective in patients who were:
- manipulated within 8 weeks
- with full extension and less than 90° of flexion prior to manipulation

Which rather emphasises the old saying "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" !!
 
@TexasTee Teresa,

I'd just like to wish you well for Tuesday.

I'm sorry that the discussion about MUA s may have put you in a position where you feel you have to defend your decision. It is your life and your knee and only you have the right to decide what happens to it.

My only intention in posting what I did was to make sure that no one following your thread gained the impression that you are following standard practice.
 
Having recently had a PKR, and being younger than @TexasTee I would be very concerned if I was <120 degrees at 2 months. MUA? I can't say but I would definitely be seeking professional recommendations like @TexasTee has.

It's also hard to translate the TKR literature to a PKR MUA...two completely different procedures in that regard.
 
This is Theresa’s thread and I don’t want to derail it with an extended response to Josephine’s comments. Perhaps I was not clear in my earlier post, so let me clarify a couple of points and make a comment about sharing experiences versus evidence:
  1. active patients -- regardless of age -- do not appear to be well represented in the literature I have read about TKR or issues related to it. At the same time, we appear to be emerging in the patient population with questions about participation in athletics and overall functionality.
  2. The study I linked shows one set of outcomes about MUA and there is other work (broken link removed: https://jbjs.org/content/96/16/1349.short) that make a case for better outcomes from earlier MUAs. However, there are other studies I’ve read that present different evidence. Science is built on a body of work and not one particular study. I do not know if there is consensus in the literature about the value of earlier versus later MUA, but it is not too difficult to find publications to support conflicting positions. That is why we do our research and rely on our docs and their experience.
  3. Clinical research often has small cohorts, which is why metal-analysis (studies of studies) is not uncommon in publications about clinical conditions. Any physician or for that matter any of us would not be thinking clearly to argue for or against a procedure based on one or a few studies. We need to be informed and rely on the clinical and research experience of our docs.
  4. There is value in sharing our experience here: we learn from each other and put what happens to us in context. It would be mistake to misconstrue experience sharing for evidence.
This is too long and I apologize for that. My best wishes to Theresa next week.
 
Teresa again sorry for making this the most famous MUA....I wish you the very best and you now know you have a lot of support........

Vinny:flwrysmile:
 
Good luck Teresa. Metalheart brings up a good point, the studies of younger or more active people who have had a TKR or PKR is scarce. My concern would be range of motion too. I can see how only 120 could limit the types of activities you want to do. The focus on range of motion in the literature seems to be for activities of daily living and not so much sporting activities.
 
I think all conversations about research into things like MUAs are invaluable to both myself and the wider population that might not post all that often. Please don't censor or think anything is too long - I appreciate the effort!

In regard to the infamous window of opportunity - my surgeon merely said that he found the best results between 7-9 weeks - he did not say that anything later was useless, it's one person - one set of unique experiences. The fact that he specializes and practices out of a Sports Medicine facility and works with several professional sporting teams leads me to believe that - for me! - his experience is the most applicable, to me.

At any rate - the house is clean, the crutches/ice machine and shower chair are back where they are needed and tomorrow I'll gather the groceries and prepare some food to make the first few days as easy as I can. I'm as prepared as I can get.

Truly - thanks again for everyone's input.
 
You sound all organised for tomorrow. Thinking of you and sending healing vibes. Maggie x

Maggie via Tapatalk
 
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