Guest viewing is limited

TKR Two (almost) matching knees at last!

Status
Not open for further replies.
I hear you, Toni. In order to be released, the protocol here is to be walking either unaided or with a single arm crutch or (more commonly) cane. According to my PT, I'm well on the way ROM-wise but she is concerned that my quads are still too weak and I need to work a bit more with my OT on balance (and I suspect for the latter that I need to be less doped-up). Falls are a huge concern because at best they can undermine the surgeon's work and patient's progress; and at worst in an aging population can result in fractures that could ultimately prove fatal. Tomorrow I should get my insurance company's decision as to how long I stay (they and not the staff are the final arbiters) here. I may hire a private duty caregiver the first few days I'm home till I assess how much I can do for and by myself. Just have to find one who doesn't insist on being paid in cash instead of check (the agency requires this) and who is bonded and trustworthy.

I would much rather take the original 5 mg/day dose of Opana BID and be able to take my Norco by the clock (even 8 tabs, never mind 9, could do the trick) with Tramadol for breakthrough than have 10 Opana BID and play games with the clock allotting my precious 6 tabs a day (and sometimes forfeiting two of them--I felt today that I was being punished for having stayed up 23 minutes past my bedtime last night). This is compounded by the fact that my husband can never visit me before 10:30 pm due to his workload--no sense in nodding off while he's here, especially after he drove over an hour to get to me. I was surprised in hospital with the array of pain meds I was getting. Last year, once the PCA morphine pump was disconnected, all I got in hospital, rehab and at home was 2 Norco 10 every 4-6 hrs., with nobody objecting if I insisted on every 4 hours. I went home after 10 days in rehab and immediately began weaning myself first by gradually cutting the dose, then lengthening the interval, then cutting the dose further (to the point of halving the 5 mg. ones to achieve a 7.5 mg. dose between having gone to a single 10 to a single 5 (and then 2.5 at long intervals and finally only at bedtime). What did help considerably was Celebrex after my coumadin was finished; my gut may have healed enough for me to take it again. (The Bonesmart Cocktail got me through outpatient PT, but the ibuprofen component is a non-starter now).

I'm wondering if the difference between last year and this one is that doctors have taken additional seminar training on how to avoid discipline or even prosecution for overprescribing opioids & opiates to other than terminal cancer patients; the irony is that just as pain began to be recognized as an ailment per se and pain management a valid subspecialty, the societal one-two punch of rampant recreational abuse by people not in pain, and socially conservative and judgmental medical ethics is hurting the most vulnerable who need state-of-the-art pain management.

I feel that oxymorphone does little for me but make me twitch to a point that Neurontin can't handle. I never liked IV morphine for that reason--even when it eased the pain in the first day or two post-op, the weird dreams and the clonic jerk spasms were less bearable than the slightly lower degree of pain relief afforded by short-acting (4-6 hr) oral opioids.

Don't get me wrong--as rehab facilities go, this is one of the best. (My husband confirms that most hospitals are switching or have switched over to Pillmatix or Pillex robotic computerized dispensers to cut down on theft and abuse as well as avoid human error as to dosage or even drug name).
 
It truely makes me wonder what they are thinking..when someone has a major joint surgery, their pain while in the hospital should not be trivialized because it is not cancer pain! Proper pain management is so very important for overall healing physically and emotionally!
I was so worried that I would have the same severity of pain while in the hospital with my last knee, that I did a no-no.

I brought some of my own pain meds from home. The day after surgery is when they stop the PCA, and put everyone on oral meds.
They only give one Norco every 6 hours. That didn't work for me last time, so hubby had a few Oxycodones with him. I figured that if I started to hurt badly before I needed my next Norco, I would take one.

Well luckily I was sent home the morning after surgery. It was going to be 2 hours before I could take my dose of Norco before we left for the 2 hour drive home, so I popped one of my Oxycodone right before they came in to wheel me out of the hospital.

Made the trip home tolerable.
 
Never occurred to me to bring a stash from home last year--last year they even gave me an asthma inhaler. Both times, in-hospital I was never refused a pain meds request within the "1-2 q. 4-6 h." even at the higher dose and shorter interval. In hospital this time I didn't even have to ask: I got 2 Norco q. 4 hr. automatically to stay ahead of the pain so I could get up and move and elevate as required. But I have in the past week rued my decision to leave my Norco home (I have a few each of 5s and 10s and a standing scrip for the 5s). You can bet I will avail myself of those when it comes to tapering off once I'm home. Bad enough that I have that oxymorphone (Opana) to have to wean off--how do you wean off a long-acting timed-release narcotic?

I awoke just pre-dawn with some breakthrough pain, and asked again for just some plain Tylenol (even the 325s) to tide me over till my pre-PT Norco. The nurse said that would "take away from" my allotted Norco, but I could take Tramadol and it was time for my Opana anyway. I asked for one Tramadol and she said I'd need two. Well, here I am still loopy after breakfast, but afraid not to take my Norco half an hour from now lest my painkillers wear off and I can't progress in PT. Lost a little ground ROM-wise yesterday because it was my day off; now have to work harder again. Maybe there's something to the UK way of recovery (except for wearing TED hose and being hooked up to a CPM machine--none of the OSes in the three major ortho groups in Chicago use them).

As to the trip home, my cousin had a BTKR in NYC and had to fly home to Hollywood-Ft. Lauderdale. Half an hour into the flight, she realized she'd left her oxys in her rehab room. She was able to tell the flight attendant, who managed to phone her husband so he'd have them ready when he met her at the gate. First the oxys, then the kiss!
 
Made some more progress in PT today--the timing of the Norco (9:30) was just right. Did some more unassisted cane walking. Had some E-stim during my OT. After lunch, iced and elevated--I did stiffen up a bit. Took Norco 1:45 for 2:15 therapy, but it hadn't kicked in sufficiently. But had I taken it any earlier it would have been less than 4 hrs., and my next scheduled dose is bedtime. Will try to make do with Tramadol after dinner (6-ish), when they give me my Opana as well. My OS agreed to cut my Opana back to the original 5mg. BID because of the twitching; but will not allow more than 6 Norco a day for fear of liver damage from both the acetaminophen and the combination of opioid and oxymorphone. I think he's more worried about Norco use than about Oxy.

Insurance automatically approved me till Thurs. (our 42nd anniv.). Trouble is, I won't know till Wed. whether I have to have my bags all packed and ready to go on Thurs. or I can stay till Fri. or even Sat. (If Sat., it'll have to be late in the day, as Bob has office hours). My PT will recommend I be allowed to stay till at least Mon. if I don't feel confident leaving by Fri. Looks like I may not get to give a concert, since I have rehearsal tonight, there is a movie Wed. and I may be out of here Thurs. (I find that difficult to believe--the patient whose surgery followed mine, and who says our OS told him that my surgery took so long because it was "complex", is going home Sat.). Nobody's said squat about my staples. I see my OS July 1.
 
I am having a devil of a time with this L knee, and I realize the difference may well be that last year for my R knee they didn't give me Opana, Neurontin or Tramadol--just two Norco every 4-5 hrs around the clock. I made better progress (and had PT only once a day), had less swelling and was out of rehab in 10 days (home 14 days post-op, at which point I was able to take a taxi and go out for the evening). This time, because of my surgeon's new protocol of Opana 5 mg BID and Neurontin TID (neither of which seem to work for me, IMO), I am being held to no more than 6 Norco per day (with Tramadol for breakthrough pain)--and this facility begins its "day" at midnight, instead of counting it as a 24 -hr period. And it gets worse--the pill is not considered "given" until the nurse signs off on it attesting that she gave it to me. Therefore, if I stay up too late and the nurse doesn't sign off on the pill until after midnight (no matter when I ask for it and no matter when I take it), I get only 4 per day. (MY normal "day" is awakening till bedtime, since if I get Norco at bedtime I sleep through the night).

Once again, because of this stupid pill-dispensing computer and nurse miscommunication, I got shafted a second time. I asked at 10:30 for my Norco to be given to me at 11:30 so I could take it and have it logged in no later than midnight, preferably by the evening and not the night nurse. I dozed off after the Tramadol I needed because my last Norcos were at 1:30 pm so I could make it through afternoon PT (which is scheduled only 4 hrs after morning PT). The evening nurse didn't wake me up, nor did she tell the night nurse. And the night nurse didn't even look at the note in my chart till she came in to remove my staples (which hurt beyond belief) at 12:15 am. By then my pain was at 6-7.

I do NOT like this night nurse, despite her cheery disposition and supposedly caring behavior, because of her attitude towards pain. When I ask for Tramadol, she always gives me only 1 after 3 am and will not give me ANY before that lest I get "sedated." And when she asked me my pain level at 6:30--I rang my call button at 5:58--and I said 4, she replied, "oh, 4's not bad." It's MY pain threshhold, not hers.

So my only option is to either go to PT with inconsistent and thus inadequate pain control, or take my 2 Norco each before PT--going 4 hrs between them (I tried taking only one for afternoon PT, with disastrous results, and then being inadequately controlled by Tramadol) then having to wait until after midnight to get them again. How the heck am I supposed to stay ahead of the pain??? And to bring the subject back to this thread, I am effectively being "weaned" off Norco with my pain still inconsistent and out of control--while the elephant in the room is how to wean off a 5mg dose of Opana twice a day--everyone knows oxymorphone is harder to kick than hydrocodone, even if the oxy is the smallest sustained-release dose they make. You can't cut Opana since it's time-release, so the only way to avoid withdrawal symptoms is to stretch out the interval until it hits 24 hrs--and then hope by 36 hrs I can discontinue it safely.

I tried 10 mg Opana in order to endure the 6-Norco/day limit--all it did was make my muscles twitch. The cruel irony of this new protocol, which probably came from attending a seminar on how not to run afoul of state authorities when prescribing short-acting opioids, is that the true street drug is the long-acting synthetic morphine. Last year, 14 days post-op and back at home, I began successfully weaning off the Norco, achieving it in a little more than 3 weeks. Lord knows when & how I can get off the Opana--which by now is probably just preventing withdrawal symptoms and nothing else.
 
Sandy, you do have the option of asking to speak with the patient care representative or the nursing supervisor. Your pain should be managed and those nurses have the ability to give you meds within the doctor's prescribed amounts. They should NOT be rationing them for you when you request them. Also, I suggest you ALWAYS report your pain level at 7 or 8 when you are needing to take pain meds. That system of numbers is only as good as the people interpreting it and it is quite likely that you'll not get much of a response when you tell them it only hurts at a 4 level.
 
Sandy, why don't you start withdrawing from the Opana now, in the rehab facility and I agree with Jamie to talk with a nursing supervisor---I have never had any staples, but most folks say that they do not hurt when removed.

It sounds like the night nurse is a secret sadist!! But, it is incompetent not to record properly and that is not acceptable at any facility. The evening nurse set the stage for the problem.

Also, I will tell you that I never took any extra pain pills before pt. If you need them----then the pt is too much for you right now and you need to tell them to back off. Rather than worrying about taking pain pills before pt, I would just try to get on a better schedule---they are doing a terrible job of that---and then, have the pt back off so that you are not hurting in pt. If the nursing supervisor does not help, ask for the patient advocate or Omnibudsman and talk to him/her. I went right to the CEO of the hospital at one point--but everyone is more assesible in Montana.
 
Sandy you need to speak to the charge nurse, nursing supervisor whatever the title of RN in charge. I never had pain above a four at rehab but my nurses always gave me in meds because one persons four is another persons ten. That nurse isnt sweet, she is awful. I also suggest getting charge nurse contact your OS about your pain management.
 
They're pretty shorthanded when it comes to therapists and the gym is too small and hasn't enough beds and exercise machines for the suddn influx of new patients, at least in the mornings. As for taking pain meds before PT, that's what we were taught in pre-op knee class, and it's in NorthShore's patient handbook as well. Also, we were instructed never to let our pain get above 4 lest it be uncontrollable. The 6-Norco daily limit was set by my OS, whom I'll be seeing Monday. I will discuss it with him.
 
As for taking pain meds before PT, that's what we were taught in pre-op knee class, and it's in NorthShore's patient handbook as well.
Well, with no disrespect to the messenger, I question that message. It stands to reason, IMO, that if pain is a no-no then it's just as bad to take a masking agent for it in order to do something otherwise too painful.
 
Well, with no disrespect to the messenger, I question that message. It stands to reason, IMO, that if pain is a no-no then it's just as bad to take a masking agent for it in order to do something otherwise too painful.
Ah, Roy--that probably sums up the difference between the UK and US models of knee-replacement rehab. In the UK model, at 2 wks. post-op I'd be home icing, elevating, ambulating only to the loo and kitchen and taking my pain meds around the clock in order to stay ahead of the pain. It would be 2 more weeks till my first physiotherapy.

Here, at least in most of the US, it's pretty different. Had I been able to go home straightaway on the third day (and thus be in charge of my own meds as per my OS' prescribing protocol), I'd have had a visiting PT on my first full day home and thrice weekly for the first 4-6 weeks. But because I don't have consistently available help at home, I went to inpatient rehab--where the standard protocol is PT at least once (more often twice) DAILY except Sunday plus daily OT (adaptive skills training and upper body conditioning). The nurses are in charge of dosing--and here they are constrained by that wretched computer, which links to patients' charts and turns all of our carriages into pumpkins at midnight.

Discharge protocol (per the length of time insurance is willing to pay--Medicare is more generous but I'm too young) is: independent toileting and dressing; unsupervised ambulation with walker (more often, cane or even no assistive device); and consistently comfortable 90 deg. flex/3 deg. extension--and that is achievable within that short time period by PT aided by whatever makes it less painful. (Just as judicious medication can make the difference between being miserably sedentary and functioning on one's job or pursuing active recreation). I notice that those >65 tend not to be pushed as hard--due to age but also in large part to having a longer stay which allows patience for patients.
 
Today's kind of a light day--one session each OT & PT. No therapy at all tomorrow. Milestone is that yesterday I walked with my therapist--2 bl. w/o a cane! I still get wheeled down to therapy, but now I use my cane for everything else but toileting in the middle of the night, when I use the walker for safety. Monday is my OS appt., at which time I'll ask him about meds. I expect to get sprung from here on Tuesday, maybe Wednesday--nobody's said anything definite yet. About to go downstairs to play & sing for Social Hour.
 
Played for Social Hour and then some. Had taken 2 Norco before morning PT but didn't want to risk the Norco farbling up my fingers. Was operating at enough of a disadvantage, fingerpicking with a split index nail (way overdue for my mani-pedi, at which I get gel overlays so I can play guitar & dulcimer effectively without dealing with fingerpicks--playing with fingerpicks feels like kissing through a screen door). Tried the fingerpicks I carry for emergencies, but they sounded bizarre with the dulcimer and I couldn't feel the strings. Rewarded myself with an ice cream cone; it was only when I got up from my seat to push my wheelchair (which held my dulcimer as I carried my guitar on my back) back upstairs to my room that I felt the effects of sitting in a low chair, playing and sometimes tapping my feet, for over an hour on just Neurontin. Got back to my room and am now icing and elevating--and savoring that Norco--before dinner. Also had a very productive PT session so I'm looking forward to simply resting tomorrow.
 
My instructions were to take hydrocodone 1/2 hour before p/t just like yours were. Seems to be the way they do things here. (My neighbor is 4 weeks out and that's what he was told too. I've been told I can take 1-2 of them every 4-6 hours, or up to 12 a day. Since I'm only a few days out, I' m making sure I take at least one every six hours, and I take 2 at bedtime to keep the pain level down and let me sleep a little. Will you be going home Monday like you thought??
 
It looks like Tuesday, since I have my OS appt. Mon. morning and the social services office here hasn't given me a release date. This morning I got to 94 deg. flex and 0 extension on my own, so it looks like I've met at least my OS' discharge criteria; then comes home PT. There's more equipment here than I have at home (I can't do a full revolution on my upright bike but I have no problem doing 15 min. at 4 resistance and a 70-step-per-min. pace on the NuStep here), more supervision and greater frequency, so I suspect the reason I'm still here is to take full advantage of that before being released "into the wild."

I certainly hope I'm out before July 4, especially because of the three gigs I have next week! (Fortunately, I can do them sitting down at a comfy height and won't have to drive or schlep or set up PA equipment).

Last year I had the same pain protocol as you have: 1-2 Norco 10/325 every 4-6 hrs. as needed, up to 12 a day. That was from surgery all the way through rehab and home (and I began tapering off my first day home). This time around I get only 6 a day, because they're giving me the extended-release oxymorphone to reduce the need for Norco (and limit my acetaminophen intake) plus gabapentin to prevent those sharp "electric shock" pains in the newly reawakening (formerly severed) neural pathways; plus Tramadol for breakthrough pain. I'm noticing that Tramadol works mainly by making me drowsy; either it or the oxymorphone are what's giving me those strange involuntary jerks and twitches during light sleep.

How are you doing now that you're home? Do you find that the early-release protocol Dr. Berger uses has allowed you to more quickly function independently?
 
Bob came by last night after dinner, and we had a nice visit. Facility has given me permission for a "field trip" today, so he & Gordy are taking me to dinner early this evening. Wanted to go to B'way Cellars in our neighborhood, but they're closed for a private party (Pride Day celebration). So we'll either go to the Outback at Village Crossing Mall down the street from rehab or to McCormick & Schmick up at Old Orchard Mall. Real steak or perfectly done seafood.....mmmm! No wine, which usually completes a gourmet meal (part of the fun is matching the right wine to the right food), but I'll manage!

Otherwise, a quiet day--no PT or OT, just meals and the afternoon movie. They show fairly current ones here: "The Guilt Trip," "Quartet," "Argo," and "Hyde Park on Hudson" are the ones they've shown thus far. Nurse suggested that rather than forgoing my Norco today, I space them out to stay ahead of the pain. So I had one at breakfast, and will have one at 2pm and 7pm plus 2 at bedtime. Bedtime will be earlier tonight, as I have to be ready to roll at 8:30 am tomorrow when the Medi-Car comes to take me to & from my OS down on the Near North lakefront. Pricy trip from up here in Skokie, but otherwise I have nobody to take me tomorrow (Bob's at work, Gordy doesn't drive, Carrie is off to take her husband to his medical appts. and wheelchair taxis--same fare as regular ones--are strictly w/in Chicago city limits; and this facility doesn't allow patients unescorted in taxis. Otherwise, I could just get wheeled across the street which is technically in Chicago, and get picked up there).

The 94 degrees flex I mentioned yesterday? It wasn't achieved by pushing myself or the PT pushing my knee. Last exercise of the session was 5 minutes on the arm-exerciser "bike." I just planted my feet on the footrests and pedaled with my hands. PT sneaked over with the goniometer, measured my bend and declared "94!" I got to 0 flex doing quad sets on the exercise ball too, so it looks like I'm ready to blow this pop stand soon!
 
Oh it does sound like you're ready! You're coming along just great! I love the idea of an outing...we went to McCormick and schmicks downtown the Saturday before my surgery. Kind of a "Last Supper." We took in a matinee of West Side Story and then had an early dinner. I've been to the Skokie site many times...delicious steaks and out of this world lobster bisque! My home p/t is going well. On Friday I got to 105 and 0. Unbelievable! I just need to not overdo and go backwards in my recovery. We'll have to meet in Skokie down the road sometime!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom