MUA LTKR, 8 weeks out; MUA at week 5; worried about ROM

@liam2015, I think it comes down to doing what you think is right, and what works for you. I had good flexion from the beginning, so for me the role of PT was different. The exercises caused more swelling for me just when my swelling was going down on its own. For you the PT visits are helpful and you enjoy doing them. Continuing them is the smart thing to do! Whatever works best is the way to do something.

PT is going to tell TKR patients they need PT. Surgeons will vary. Patients just want to know what to do. Trouble is, there are different paths to recovery success. Some work for some, others work for others, but there's no consensus at all on a path that will work for everybody.
 
I believe it all as to do with the type of therapy. After being in an immbolizer for a month with NO bending a new TKR, my OS wrote a script for non-aggressive therapy. That meant no one pushing on my knee, no weights or resistance bands. The PT had me rock back/forth on the bike, heel slides, lots of stretches and an easy massage. A recumbent bike was an essential piece in gaining ROM, but it was always at 0 resistance. Most important for me, it meant no pain and as soon as I had a full revolution on the bike I was able to drive (2 weeks after I started non-aggressive PT)! I hadn't driven for 2.5 months!
 
Gosh, what a blessing to get all your messages of hope! Ugh, exactly 8 weeks post-op, and I STILL don't want to get out of bed, do the stagger-walk until things warm up, deal with whether I should take which pain med and when, etc, etc, etc. I've been trying to take the narcotics (Narco) only before bed and before exercising, particularly before PT, and the rest of the time using Tylenol Extended Release. But the road is bumpy. For example, last evening and this morning, I am back to having that tender, burned sensation all along the inside of my knee--like a very bad sunburn, where you just want to scream when a fold of fabric brushes against it. I thought that unpleasant sensation was behind me! Drat!

My current mantras are from @Pheebs52 and @kmac81230 : It's only week 8. It's only week 8. It's only week 8. And Lists are lame. Lists are lame. Lists are lame. Or maybe this is better: Let go of the lists! Let go of the lists! Let go of the lists! Thanks, ladies!
 
As you said, it's only week 8! That burning is the pits. I had it, too, so I know exactly what you're talking about. It does get less and then finally goes away.

You shouldn't take pain meds before PT. That masks any pain you might be having there that could be hindering your recovery. You want to feel that pain so you can not do it until there is no pain. Your knee will let you know when it's ready to do things.
 
Funny, I was just thinking I might try the next PT session without taking the meds. Wish me luck!
 
I kept my gabapentin up during the day long after I stopped the daytime percocet, just bc that burning pain was so slow in resolving.
 
Hmmm I wasn't given gabapentin for this situation,but I am familiar with it from when i was trying to manage carpal/ulnar tunnel symptoms before surgery.
 
You are much better off doing PT without the meds in your system, then you will know if you're doing too much or something your knee is not ready for. Gentle movements are so much better for you!
 
@liam2015 --Thank you for sharing your personal story with me. We are at similar "measures" right now, and I too am struggling with the downstairs trips. I don't really think I'm ready for it because I have to throw my hip out quite far and it's not correct form. I can do up foot over foot, but that is not terribly comfortable, either. I love the steps at my daughter's apartment complex because they are shorter than ours are, and I can go up with relative ease, and almost down them correctly, at least on my limber days. I like how you think about your PT and your progress. Can I ask: Have you had any therapeutic massage yet?

It IS a struggle to feel confident in the outcomes, isn't it? I wish there were a way we could see into the future--or maybe TWO futures: one in which we listened to our bodies and did what felt right, and the other where we aggressively attacked the exercise thing. I am on the way to believing that the people on here who tell their stories can be those windows to the future for me, and that of course I will discover that listening to my body is the right way to go. But I am still faltering on holding to that perspective, believe me! Yesterday I had PT and massage and was quite sore and tired. I was okay until bedtime with taking it easy and doing the ice/elevation thing, and THEN the doubts set in! "Oh, no...should I have done some of the exercises after all?" "Oh, no, the iron bands are back: It's too late now, but I probably should have done some cycling and stretches."

Today I've had several appointments all morning, so haven't faced the dilemma of how much to exercise yet, but am going to try to go with moderate and gentle, if my inner guilty person will let me.

I'd love to know how you're getting on from time to time.
 
hi Polkadot...yes i have the therapeutic massage each time at physio where she massages my knee, my incision, thigh and calf with baby oil on her hands...and then...manipulates my knee trying to bend it further each time. i must admit that it does hurt and i struggle with whether i should allow it or not but then again, i didn't start physio until week 6 and i am concerned about getting more r.o.m. each time it seems i only gain one degree but functioning improves. i'm accepting that it's going to take more time than most. after all that, i have laser treatment (only for a few minutes), and then "tens" machine with ice packs above and below my knee, sometimes a heat pack below my knee with ice pack on top (very relaxing). i also have exercises to do at home which i have been slacking off on due to being busy recently, (bad excuse lol) but yesterday i started back up.

i have my last physio appointment of the week this afternoon (i go twice a week) and will update my page. it won't be long before you'll be going up your own stairs alternate feet; you're still only around 3 weeks from m.u.a. in the meantime invite yourself to your daughter's home and practise on her stairs.:hi: i practise going down without holding onto anything on our front door steps which are shallow and still very gingerly on our stairs going to basement, toe first lol, and hanging onto handrail on each side.:SUNsmile:
 
Update: Week 10. I am hanging in there at about -3/95 degrees under my own power. Today at PT, I could only do about 90 in the classic position on my back. Disappointing, but the therapist massaged a little and re-measured it at 95. The joint does seem looser and more cooperative when she is working with it. She was pleased with my progress--she sees me about once every four visits or so. Two therapists share my case.

I was going to update last week, but just couldn't bring myself to do so. Now I'm ready to confess. I have had quite a few ups and downs since week 8. I'm not usually a drama queen, so these bad days come out of nowhere and hit me hard. I get weepy and cross, and then I'm disgusted with myself, and then I get weepy some more. This is so NOT me...at least the me who got through breast cancer, chemo, and radiation as a single parent in my 30s with a 4 year old to take care of, or the me who had a heavy oak door fall on my heel and slice it open at work--the principal wanted me to go to the hospital to get stitches, but I just had him bandage it up and went on teaching. Or the me who had shoulder surgery and ditched the pain meds on the second day because we had a family emergency and I felt I had to drive my mom (in a blizzard, no less) 2 1/2 hours to her home to catch a plane. I could go on...

I have been trying to cut out the more extreme exercises and the rigid exercise schedule in favor of treating my knee more gently with benign stretches and more rest/elevation/ice/heat. (One of my PTs strongly advises heat; does anyone else do that?) I do pretty well throughout the day but seem to hit a wall around dinner time. I just can't sit there any more; can't find a comfortable position; my knee is complaining--not strong pain, but by then I'm tired of the sensations. I get antsy and shaky, from the low level of activity, I think. I've tried jumping on my small desk cycle, walking around a few blocks, but once the knee starts grumbling, it doesn't stop until about an hour or two after I go to bed and finally fall asleep. (And then of course the "rotisserie chicken" thing begins!):groan:

I decided at the end of week 9 that I needed to keep the Tylenol up, which I had been experimenting with lessening. I also went back to strategic narcotics--before PT and at bedtime--after doing without several times. I reread some of Josephine's comments in various places on the site, where she says that people who've had TKRs sometimes need pain relief for 3-4 months, and that it's better to keep it up rather than let the pain creep in and then try to medicate. She also made me think when she asked another participant to rate their pain and reminded him/her that pain takes many forms. If my knee is not flat-out screaming at me, I tend to think of it as "discomfort" rather than pain. So now I've decided to "baby" my pain and see if that keeps my emotions more stable. I "hear" you guys who say it's better not to medicate before exercising--maybe I can still get to that point soon, but not yet.

It doesn't help that I talked to my mom a few days ago, and she trotted out an old script about me not being very tolerant of pain! She cautioned me that I had to do all the exercises even if they hurt, and basically to "suck it up." She has no idea what I've been doing or what kind of pain tolerance I really have. The conversation especially threw me because I want to be stoic, and sometimes it's just too much.

Finally, I am tired of spending all my time with this knee, either doing something to it, for it, or thinking about it. It drains me of energy!

There, I've said my piece. Soon I will muster up the good will to let you all know the unexpected "gifts" that doing this knee thing has given me so far. Then I will feel more like myself.:yahoo:
 
Hi Polkadot -- ((hugs)) and thanks for sharing your really personal frustrations over the past couple of weeks. Have you tried not doing any exercises, including at PT? I say this because I have really stopped doing anything except for ADLs which includes some walking at work and 1-3 stints per day on the stationary bike for 10 minutes max for a very slight stretch. I haven't been to PT in over a week and am only going once or twice a month rom here on out - to work on my walking form. It took me awhile to get to this place as I felt guilty or felt like I was hindering my recovery by skipping the exercises at home - but I think it's just the opposite. If I do any exercises I swell up, get stiff, am more achy have to take more Tylenol, and have more trouble sleeping. Today I felt good after an achy weekend and did one heel slide to the point of discomfort - I was curious about my flexion as I meet with the OS on Wed and just that made me more swollen. I have been at the "discomfort" stage for several weeks - though ironically today is about the best I've felt since before the surgery. I think we forget that "discomfort" is legitimate pain. Today is the first day I have not taken a Tylenol (yet) - I will be 12 weeks tomorrow - so use the meds if you need them. Your parents are not the only ones who nag about the exercises - right @SusieShoes? I talked with my folks yesterday (they've both had them both done - genetically I was doomed!) and the last bit of our conversation was all about them reminding me to work hard on those exercises - "the exercises are key to a good recovery" AARRGGHH!. I also don't think this has anything to do with pain tolerance - as you noted you have survived some really tough health issues and injuries. This surgery is a butt-kicker that goes on and on and on and on . . . . Feel free to vent anytime - it takes courage to expose your vulnerabilities and personal journey to a bunch of strangers - though all the Smarties feel like my new besties. Hope you have a good night!
 
oh gosh Polkadot...i hear the frustration and i share it with you. i have to say that your extension and flexion are very good and the fact that it is improving little by little is encouraging, the same as mine. one would think or expect this surgery to be a lot easier than cancer and chemo, but it's so frustrating to have this pain, stiffness, and achiness day after day with such little improvement. omg, that accident with your heel sounds awful and also driving your mom to the airport, having declined pain meds for your shoulder that you needed. just remember how strong you were those times and give yourself a break now. it's so hard to decide whether to baby our new knee or to do the recommended by physio exercises ~ i still struggle with that. i think we have to find a balance.

awww your mom advising you ~ my sister was trying to advise me the same; now i don't tell her anything other than i'm doing great (not totally true lol). i think you have a good idea to "baby" your pain; i need to do that too. regarding using heat, the physiotherapist that took over my case for 2 sessions while Melissa was on vacation asked me if i had ever tried heat on my knee. i said "no, i couldn't stand the thought of it". she thought i should try it sometime (i haven't). however, Melissa has put heat under my knee and ice pack on top. i take a heated magic bag to bed with me; at first to keep me warm, now i put it on my thigh above my knee to help with the achiness. i still don't want heat on top of my knee, but who knows, it might work for some. did you happen to get the lounge doctor, i can't remember. i've been using it in bed every night and it helps to keep me still and my legs comfortable all night long. i had been getting up around 3 or 4 to pee but i don't think i have the last couple of nights.

hope you know you're not alone in your frustration ~ it's completely understandable and so hard to stay patient. :console2:
 
As long as you have swelling, heat is not good anyway near the knee. Up on your quads would probably be OK.
 
@Polkadot - I'm so sorry for all you're going through. just like @liam2015 said, you've been through a lot of other health issues and came through them with flying colors. Like it's been said, this is like no other surgery. And a lot of people don't understand, especially the ones that haven't been through it. As far as your parents, I don't know how old they are, but my OS said older people have an easier recovery because their quads aren't as tight and in shape as younger people so they are more loose and therefore their rom comes easier and faster. This may not be the case with them, he just said that's what he's seen in his practice.
Don't worry about your rom, it is good. And as for pt, my regular pt guy was out last week and I used his colleague. He didn't do as much and I didn't do much of the exercises at home and when I went today I had gone up from 96 to 101. I contribute that to less formal exercise. I just did my adl's and walking,
but like liam2015, I also struggle with the conflicting views on the subject and I agree with her that it is all about balance.
Don't worry, you're doing great, you got this!
 
Have you tried not doing any exercises, including at PT? I say this because I have really stopped doing anything except for ADLs which includes some walking at work and 1-3 stints per day on the stationary bike for 10 minutes max for a very slight stretch.

@kmak81230 - I'm still doing them at PT like a good Do-Bee. I haven't had the courage yet to let them or the PT go. Your experience with going hard and then letting go really resonates--I'm still somewhere in between, though. Congratulations on the good flexion!

I think we forget that "discomfort" is legitimate pain.

Yes, I think that's what catches me up in the web of misery. With other surgeries or injuries, I could "suck up" the discomfort because it got less and less each day. With this, I would classify most of my pain, right from the beginning, as "discomfort" rather than true screaming pain, like a raw nerve in a tooth. In fact, when my physical therapist asks me about my pain level as she's massaging, I usually tell her I can't quantify it. For me, it's either ok--bearable--like a pesky mosquito, or it's intolerable, and as she says, I have to "tap out." One of the things I'm trying to do as of yesterday after my whiny post is to notice when there is discomfort for more than a few minutes and then try to describe to myself what it feels like and why I'm uncomfortable. I think I was trained from a child to ignore discomfort and only complain when things really hurt.

one would think or expect this surgery to be a lot easier than cancer and chemo, but it's so frustrating to have this pain, stiffness, and achiness day after day with such little improvement.

That is such a good way to say it, @liam2o15 -- I actually told my husband the other day that getting through the breast cancer to the other side was easier than this is. When I heard those words come out of my mouth, I had to amend them, because the worst part of the cancer was the fear of not being around to raise my daughter. It really gives one pause, doesn't it, though, to think that this is in some ways harder!"

it's so hard to decide whether to baby our new knee or to do the recommended by physio exercises ~ i still struggle with that.

Yes, and I am so grateful to you and everyone else who admit to this struggle! One of the great things about my therapist is that I suspect she is doing some reading and thinking about TKR. Since my doctor has discharged me except for a check in 6 months, she has let up on his orders for "aggressive" PT, and she has started talking in terms of long-term improvement rather than trying to force anything.

did you happen to get the lounge doctor, i can't remember.

I did get the lounge doctor, and it is a dream compared to stacking pillows. The past few days, I haven't been very comfortable with it, though, until I realized that the cover was heating up underneath my legs. I'm wrapping a cool sheet around it now, and it helps.

Don't worry about your rom, it is good. And as for pt, my regular pt guy was out last week and I used his colleague. He didn't do as much and I didn't do much of the exercises at home and when I went today I had gone up from 96 to 101.

Wow, @Mister -- that's great news! With anecdotes like that, I may be able to let go more completely soon. Celle told me re my first post to stop all the exercises -- I've cut back A LOT, but still that PT...
 
I've got to admit I've never been one to like PT. This is my 3rd knee surgery and hated the PT with each one. I never really put together the that more movement causes more pain and more pain causes more swelling and ultimately more pain. That is until I joined this group. Now I can see the correlation with my own activity levels.

I did PT for 8 weeks and then stopped. My ROM was slow to start then at 113 when I left PT and now at 4+ months it is 130. Still lots of stiffness and tightness which increases with activity. I walk and ride my stationary bike. I do not miss PT.

I do therapeutic massages twice a month which really helps with my right tendons and quad muscles.
 
I don't know why PT always wants to measure ROM while laying down. Here's a link that'll help you with thenleg hanging down.

https://bonesmart.org/forum/threads/rom-range-of-motion-information.3730/

I think taking Tylenol or other meds is ok, as you said many need them for 3-4 months. It's just not wise to take them right before PT. If you need meds for PT you're probably doing too much at therapy. I agree with the others, it may be a good idea to take a vacation from PT and just live your life without worrying about exercises for a little while.
 

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