MUA Oct 2017 TKR - Hematoma - MUA - Finally past 90!<

Hello everyone.. I will be posting my 6 week update tomorrow but wanted to check in and say that after several weeks of no sharp or weird pains in my knee, I know have one! It's on the inside side of my knee, right under the scar line - it's a continual dull ache... I think I've read on several threads that weird pains out of no where are common and normal? It's been going on for a few hours regardless of my icing today which has been alot!
 
The reassuring about posting is you find other "normals" and not all normals are the same. I had an old pain in the center of my knee make a return visit this morning. Why? I have no idea. I had a nice sized spot that looked like a bruise , no pain. It left today after 4 weeks. it was never a problem, but ,of course, I wondered if it was normal. Lots of weirdness,huh?
 
How's that new pain today? It is normal to have all kinds of different areas of pain here and there. They will disappear and then show up someplace else.
 
Well I've had a truly disappointing day. I met with my Doctor and he wants me to improve ROM 20 degrees a week so that when I see him in 3 weeks my ROM will be at 120. I've been stuck at 60 since my last therapy appt. on Nov 15th in spite of resting, elevating and icing most of the day and nite, doing some knee bends on a step and some heel slides and stretches. I'm inbetween a rock and a hard place. I know I won't make 120 in that time but maybe I'll have some improvement. He wants me in PT twice a week, which actually doesn't start until 12/6 and that week I only have one. He said to take my pain pill so that when I go in, my body is relaxed and they will be able to help me move more. He said that when you are in pain, you tense up and stop progress. I really don't want to go back on any meds. I haven't needed anything but Tylenol and Ice. He also said I need to start moving my knee cap around as it's very tight. He showed my husband and exercise he can help me with which is: I sit on the bed with my leg handing down and push against my husbands hands while he holds my ankle, holding for a count of 5 and then I release and my husband pushes my ankle back as far as he can without me going into horrid pain and then releases it into an extension to relax it. He said that would be the one that would really help me through this stuck place and that I might hear the scar tissue tearing, etc. The doctor did it and it was alot of pressure and it kind of hurt and what also hurt was my outer quad muscle which I guess is getting stretched since it has not been used to bend my knee back in 6 weeks. The doctor said we did loose some ground when my hematoma stopped all activity for 2 weeks and then the surgery to remove it but it didn't seem to stop him from saying that I should be at 120 by 9 weeks. I met a gal in the waiting room who was at 17 weeks and she had 114 ROM and she was also a patient of his and she takes her pain pills, etc., etc., and she's going to keep doing it all so she can progress. I'm so confused! I certainly do not have to agree to an MUA in 3 weeks as I think I have a longer window to get one if needed. I guess I'm just going to do the best I can and work to do more than I have been. I'm so utterly confused!!!!! PS.. this doctor also had his own total knee surgery!
 
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@jakeleg - yes these pains that appear out of nowhere are weird. @sistersinhim yes the pain did disappear this morning.. but was with me for around 6 hours! Thanks for the comment that these pains come and go!!! I will relax in that knowledge!
 
I am so sorry this is what your doctor told you. I just want to cry and scream in frustration, for you and for all of us. I just don’t understand how he can honestly expect you to get to 120 by that date and why it’s so important that you do.
:console2:
 
This is why I want to throw something when I hear about ROM. I'm confused you had mua 2 weeks after tkr?
 
@jakeleg I was in for surgery to remove the Hematoma and while I was under he did an MUA to help give me a fresh start since I had not been able to do anything for 2 weeks. He thought it would help but it didn't at that stage.

@Jockette - thank you...
 
hi funkymuse...do i understand it that your surgeon is suggesting a 2nd m.u.a. in 3 weeks (in addition to the m.u.a. you had when you had the hematoma removed at 2 weeks post-op)? did he measure your m.u.a. today?
 
Hi funkymuse I am sorry you are going through this. Maybe the exercise with your husband will help. Two exercises I find useful are lying face down on the bed, the first with my legs dangling over the side from mid thigh level and let gravity help the extension, the second with my legs bent and using my unoperated leg to help my operated one to get a better bend. It's like heel slides in the air. My physio showed me these. I do them till I can feel the stretch but not to discomfort.
Wishing you well.
 
How are you feeling today?:console2:
 
Well I've had a truly disappointing day. I met with my Doctor and he wants me to improve ROM 20 degrees a week so that when I see him in 3 weeks my ROM will be at 120. I've been stuck at 60 since my last therapy appt. on Nov 15th in spite of resting, elevating and icing most of the day and nite, doing some knee bends on a step and some heel slides and stretches. I'm inbetween a rock and a hard place. I know I won't make 120 in that time but maybe I'll have some improvement. He wants me in PT twice a week, which actually doesn't start until 12/6 and that week I only have one. He said to take my pain pill so that when I go in, my body is relaxed and they will be able to help me move more.
Forgive me saying this, but I think your surgeon is very impatient and he is wrong. Since we know that ROM
can continue to improve for a year, or even much longer, after a knee replacement, there is no need to rush. There isn't any deadline you have to meet:
Myth busting: the "window of opportunity" in TKR

To be expecting a bend of 120 by 9 weeks is ridiculous. Some people may achieve it, but the rest of us take a lot longer - and we're all normal.

He's also giving bad advice, telling you to take pain pills so you can get through PT by forcing your knee to bend. Pain is a warning sign that you are doing more than your knee is ready to do. If you artificially dampen down the pain, you may inadvertently damage your knee.

Frankly, I think you'd be more relaxed if he stopped hassling you about ROM!

He showed my husband and exercise he can help me with which is: I sit on the bed with my leg handing down and push against my husbands hands while he holds my ankle, holding for a count of 5 and then I release and my husband pushes my ankle back as far as he can without me going into horrid pain and then releases it into an extension to relax it. He said that would be the one that would really help me through this stuck place and that I might hear the scar tissue tearing, etc. The doctor did it and it was a lot of pressure and it kind of hurt and what also hurt was my outer quad muscle which I guess is getting stretched since it has not been used to bend my knee back in 6 weeks.
Please don't do it! Forcing your knee like that can upset and inflame it more, causing increased swelling and loss of ROM.
Remember this:
a. If it hurts, don't do it and don't allow anyone - especially a physical therapist - to do it to you
b. If your leg swells more or gets stiffer in the 24 hours after doing it, don't do it again.
​
There is no need at all to rush this. Give your knee lots of rest, ice and elevation, so the swelling can go down - and your knee will start to bend more, as if by magic.

Don't get trapped into thinking that working harder at exercises will increase your bend. It won't:
Knee recovery - Lose the Work Ethic!!
TKRs and our fast food society

The doctor said we did loose some ground when my hematoma stopped all activity for 2 weeks and then the surgery to remove it but it didn't seem to stop him from saying that I should be at 120 by 9 weeks.
Yes you did lose some ground, but so what? There's no need to rush. @KarriB had to keep her leg completely straight with no exercise at all for a month, and yet her knee ended up bending normally, with no manipulation needed.

My surgeon doesn't even allow any PT at all for the first month after a knee replacement. He says your knee needs that time, to start on its journey of healing. For that month, we rest, ice and elevate our leg, and walk around the house.
After that month, we just go to PT once every 2 weeks, where we are shown a few new exercises to do at home.
His patients all do well and achieve good ROM, as I did, and he hasn't had to do a manipulation to help with ROM for the past 4 years. I think that speaks for itself.

You've probably been working like crazy at exercises, thinking that will help increase your ROM and it hasn't worked. So, why keep on doing the same thing?

Your knee is wounded, not lazy or unfit. It needs time and gentle treatment, so it can heal.
It's not exercising that gets you your ROM - it's time. Time to recover, time for swelling and pain to settle, and time to heal. Your ROM is there right from the start, just waiting for all that to happen, so it can show itself.

Give your poor knee a rest. It's already had one MUA and that did no good. Why contemplate having another? It will only re-injure your knee and make it more sore and swollen.

You are allowed to say no to the MUA. Did you realise that? It's your knee and you are the only one who has the right to say what will happen to it. No one can do anything to it without your permission and you are allowed to say you want to wait a while.
CONSENT: what it means and how it can be used
Saying no to therapy - am I allowed to?
 
Celle is right, my TKR leg was kept in an immbolizer for a 4 weeks just a month after TKR surgery due to infection, subsequent surgery and my very compromised soft tissue. My OS said my soft tissue did not like aggressive therapy so when I was finally allowed to bend he ordered non-aggressive PT. He showed me what this meant by moving my foot about 2 inches with his foot. So that’s what I did and just concentrated on walking with my knee bent. My knee was stiff, but it wasn’t swollen at all because I hadn’t been working it! So after a few weeks I was put on the bike, rocked the pedals for another few weeks and finally got a full revolution.

My PT didn’t involve any weights or anyone pushing my knee. After month 4-5 I did have some strength work, but I was released from PT with a ROM of 109 at 5 months post op which everyone was very happy with, however my ROM continued to improve for over a year post op. I ride 8 miles a day on a bike and walk 2 miles a day, but it took a while to get there. This recovery can’t be rushed.

I agree with Celle, expecting 120 at less than 2 months post op is a bit much.
 
Hello everyone.. getting on here late and have no energy left so I will reply in more depth tomorrow but I was just searching online for people who's knees actually got stuck and never regained much ROM. Does anyone know of a site that talks about 'real life' people this has happened to? I mean where are the numbers? I'm asking because all these doctors, nurses and PT's try to scare everyone to death but where are these people they talk about that got stuck in low ROM? Do they even exist? From what I read here most everyone, if not everyone who goes slow and lets the knee do what it needs to do, have regained all if not more ROM over time. So... hummm... I want to ask these professionals to "Show me the case studies!"
 
Good point! Ask your surgeon for some solid proof.

I don’t know what their rush is. Every time you have doubts, go back and read Celle’s post.
 
If u r using a cane or have one I used to hook the operated led with the cane handle a gently pull on it and use it to get my operated leg to the floor. And you can use it in reverse to get the leg back on the bed. To b honest with u I had the same problem with pain. First week or so just putting it on the floor the pain and throbbing was so bad. I too had to make a mad dash to pee and couldn’t wait to get back in bed. It will ease with time. First 10 days for me were really bad. Hang in there



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While I can't think of anyone who failed to eventually achieve an acceptable ROM, I have two examples for you, @funkymuse , of people who had a slow start to getting ROM, and yet who continued to improve slowly, and eventually achieved good ROM. They give the lie to the myth that you have to get ROM quickly, or else!

This is what Campervan wrote about the slow development of her ROM. As you can see, her flexion continued to improve for a long time.
"I had a slow recovery. Here's my flex measurements at various points:
92 - 8 weeks post op
105 - 10 weeks
107 - 5 months
110 - 6 months
112 - 7 months
116 - 9 months
119 - 11 months
118 - 1 yr
120 - 1yr 2 months
125 - 1 yr 8 months"


And this is from bertschb:
I'm 12 months out from my surgery and have some advice based on my experience:
1- Stop going to PT (all it will do is make your knee swell and reduce ROM)
2- Don't worry about your ROM
3- Be patient - VERY patient!!!

Here is my ROM history (more or less):
1 month - 60 degrees
2 months - 80 degrees
3 months - 85 degrees
4 months - 90 degrees
5 months - 90 degrees
6 months - 110 degrees
7 months - 120 degrees
8 months - 125 degrees
9 months - 130 degrees
10 months - 135 degrees
11 months - 140 degrees
12 months - 140 degrees

I spent waaaaay too much time worrying about ROM. I thought I'd be riding my bike a couple months after surgery but it took SIX months! Looking back on my surgery, if I knew then what I know now, I wouldn't have wasted my time with PT and I wouldn't have worried about ROM.

 
@Celle The following is a post that Celle wrote that was a turning point for me. It shows that different surgeons have different opinions and approaches to recovery. And that’s all it is, an approach. And since there is more than one, it seems we should be able to choose an approach that works for our individual situation.

It also shows how much our surgeon’s opinion/approach can affect us, either negatively or positively. The best part of all she said was, she was never concerned with regaining function because everyone told her she would.

That is not something we hear much in the US!

Here’s what she wrote:
In my country, just as in the USA or the UK, there are different approaches to recovery, depending on the training the surgeon himself/herself received. One surgeon in my town advises aggressive exercise. The others don't.

No. I was never shown any strengthening exercises. They were just gentle exercises aimed at increasing ROM. And I confess, I seldom did even those exercises. I've never been a person who enjoyed going to the gym or doing set exercises. I'd rather take a walk.
My knees grew stronger as they healed, just from ordinary, everyday use.

I have no idea what my ROM was at those times, because it wasn't measured. The only time my ROM was measured for my first two knee replacements, eleven years apart, was on the day I was discharged from PT - I don't even know what it was then, because my PT said something like "Oh, you're well over 90 degrees. That's good."
I didn't go to PT at all for my last TKR, so it was never measured.
MY ROM visibly continued to increase as recovery progressed and I estimate both knees bend to about 125 degrees now.

I've had two different surgeons, one in 2000 and one for my last two TKRs. Neither surgeon was particularly interested in ROM. They both said that function was more important than the numbers. My current surgeon eyeballs the knee and says "Show me what you can do."

As for swelling, it wasn't minimal until about 3 months post-op. It decreased slowly, but still returned if I overdid my activity. I suffered the same tight band feeling that almost everyone does.

One thing I have to say about measuring ROM: I never had any concerns about my knees eventually being able to bend sufficiently. Everyone told me it would come, given time.
I truly feel that the constant, frequent measuring of ROM is a very bad thing. It makes people anxious and, if theydon't achieve some theoretical number by a certain date, they also feel worried and inadequate.

Why worry your patient unnecessarily, when ROM almost always comes, given time, gentle treatment and patience?
There is no critical window of opportunity. That's an old myth that should have died long ago:
Myth busting: the "window of opportunity" in TKR
ROM: it's worth the wait for ROM
ROM: it's never too late t
 
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