Hip Arthroscopy What's normal?<

Best of luck at your appointment this week.
Let us know how it goes for you.
I hope you have a peaceful week.
@bethreads
 
Appointment wasn't super conclusive, unfortunately. Saw both my PA and surgeon, so it was a very long appointment and they answered all my questions. Nerves should recover in 9-12 months and PA didn't seem concerned that I still don't have feeling on the front of my thigh to the knee, just below incisions (subcutaneous nerves got stretched during surgery).

PA saw me first, then she got my surgeon to come in, did x-ray to confirm bone looks how it should (it does, no overgrowth). They both said that, at four months from surgery, they would hope I wouldn't be in significant pain at this point, but I still am, especially after working. I am going to try 4 hour work days and maybe get a standing desk for work.

Surgeon said he doesn't decide until 6 mos. whether or not to say the surgery was a failure. If it's a failure, he can surgically go in to see if the labrum hasn't reattached, or if it has, potentially remove labrum anchors which could be causing irritation, or I can go to a different doctor. I asked if it's possible that I'm just slow to heal, and he said it is possible--if I am feeling some improvement, it could continue to improve.

I knew that it was possible that I would be one of the 15% for whom this surgery does not help the pain level; unfortunately, I am sometimes in more pain than I was before surgery. Muscles at the incision site get sore, my nerves get irritated and sore, and I feel soreness in the joint (and groin) and the outer part of hip. I would say it's somewhat better since surgery, and I wake up without pain, but I really hope that the surgery wasn't a "failure" and that I continue to get somewhat better, albeit slowly.
 
I'm sorry you're still struggling at four months post op. Four months to the date, actually.
Hopefully it's just taking a bit longer than normal.
Wishing you comfort as you continue to heal.
I hope your weekend is a good one!
@bethreads
 
Hi @bethreads,

I just came accross your post. I have been through a scope myself (labral and impingement repair) and may be able to help a bit. Can you please describe the nature of your pain? Is it a deep aching pain, a pain that comes with certain movements, a pain that travels along from you leg to your hip, etc.

As for the thigh numbness, I had this also after my scope, and have it again with my hip replacement. Last time it was caused by the traction and took some time to fully resolve. Do you have any muscle weakness, or is it just limited skin sensation? It should come back, but if it doesn’t, there are options to repair more extensive nerve damage. Here is some really good information on nerve damaged with the various options.

http://nerve.wustl.edu/nd_injury.php

From what I understand, the concern is only if there is muscle weakness as a result of the damage, because the body can have difficulty reinervating the muscle after too long a period. This is where surgery can help if need be... though rarely required from what I have read.

Cheers
 
Hi @bethreads,

I just came accross your post. I have been through a scope myself (labral and impingement repair) and may be able to help a bit. Can you please describe the nature of your pain? Is it a deep aching pain, a pain that comes with certain movements, a pain that travels along from you leg to your hip, etc.

As for the thigh numbness, I had this also after my scope, and have it again with my hip replacement. Last time it was caused by the traction and took some time to fully resolve. Do you have any muscle weakness, or is it just limited skin sensation? It should come back, but if it doesn’t, there are options to repair more extensive nerve damage. Here is some really good information on nerve damaged with the various options.

http://nerve.wustl.edu/nd_injury.php

From what I understand, the concern is only if there is muscle weakness as a result of the damage, because the body can have difficulty reinervating the muscle after too long a period. This is where surgery can help if need be... though rarely required from what I have read.

Cheers

Hi wonkyhipoy (great name, by the way!). :) I'll try to describe the pain.

Hmm, nature of my pain varies throughout the day. It will be a mild ache in the joint early in the day. Later in the day, it becomes a deeper ache, sometimes almost throbbing. I also sometimes describe it as feeling "brittle," like my hip is going to snap apart. I do still have some incision soreness, too. The outer part of my hip will get sore--that's an aching feeling, too. I also get deep groin pain, which was another complaint I had before surgery. That is rarer, though. I am also having some side of the leg burning/soreness that feels like my original complaint for which I was misdiagnosed with bursitis. It doesn't travel in the leg beyond the side of my leg just next to the hip joint. I use ice on various parts of my hip/side of leg, depending on what is sore. I'm still taking Tylenol, and I did switch to every 6 hours while awake (6:45am, 12:45pm, 6:45pm, and I'm in bed by about 10:30pm each night). Mornings are better than afternoons in terms of pain level.

The pain does not keep me up at night--once I lay down, I can pretty much fall asleep on my back (or left side, with a large support pillow between knees--cannot sleep on my right hip that had surgery) and sleep without pain. I sometimes go to bed with an ice pack on the hip. I wake up relatively pain-free. I think I tend be quite tense in my "core" area due my general anxiety level, and I "protect" by hip by sitting kind of weird, probably especially at work (psoas muslce probably gets tight). Best relaxed positions are laying and sitting down with my legs up on the couch (half laying).

As for the nerve stuff, I have no real loss of strength or muscle weakness. It's just the subcutaneous nerves that got stretched in traction. Both my PT that I saw for just a few sessions and surgeon & physician assistant have assessed my strength and all agree that I am strong. The nerve stuff hasn't affected my ability to walk, it just feels weird and sometimes painful.

I just ordered a standing desk from fully.com since my employer approved it as an ADA accommodation. I also just left a message with my surgeon's office about working from home for one hour in addition to four hours in the office each day, to see how that goes. I can much more easily use ice and sit in a more relaxed position at home vs. my office.

Also, I was supposed to have a cortisone shot for pain earlier this week, but was sent home due to a mild cold with low grade fever. :/ Apparently, cortisone lowers immunity and they didn't want me to get sicker after getting the injection. I am going to call to reschedule next week when I'm feeling better.
 
Hi @bethreads

Sorry I took so long to respond. Been a busy couple of days.

Okay, so let's get into this. First, on the pain thing. Your pain is nearly identical to what I felt both before and after the scope. For me, the pain was caused by two things, inflammation, and nerve compression (caused by inflammation). Prior to the scope, the inflammation was caused by a shredded labrum and mincemeat cartilage. Let me tell you a little about the condition I had, and that might make things a bit more clear, and then I will talk about the pain and what not.

I had what is called an femoroacetabular impingement (FAI) with a cam impingement. Basically, the head of the femur was not shaped correctly, and the rim of my hip was too shallow. The end result was every time a front loaded the hip, I damaged the labrum and the cartilage. The interesting thing here is that it is estimated that anywhere from 10%-20% of the population have this defect, but it usually does not cause many problems... at least not this early in life (my symptoms began in my 20's). However, if you regularly play sports that front/side load the hip (at least, if that is where the impingement is... which is about 80% of the cases), you will constantly do more damage. IT is why labrum repair surgery is so common no with professional hockey and soccer (football) players. It get's even more interesting in that the deterioration/damage does not appear to just happen over time... rather an event (usually direct trauma to the hip) seems to trigger the deterioration. So just because you have an FAI, and play hockey (for example), does not mean you will have an issue... but if you have an injury to the hip, and front load it regularly, and have FAI... you definitely will.

In my case, the doc went in to do the FAI correction (shave down the bone of the fermur and deepen the rim) and repair the labrum. Unfortunately in my case, by the time the doc got in there (I was 36 at the time of surgery), the larum was absolutely shredded and the cartilage at the front of the hip was severely damaged. Thus, the hip was already arthritic (though only mildly so as I still had quite a lot of cartilage around the damaged area and quite good joint space.

Okay, so pain before was caused by the labrum and cartilage damage (inflammation), which in turn put pressure on the series of nerves running through the hip (primarily the femoral nerve). This often felt like a deep ache, but would radiate down the lag (the nerve pain) into the knee and shin. After the surgery, the pain was still there, though had changed a bit... leas nerve pain. At my three month follow up, I ask the doc why this pain was still there. He said that the reason why the pain was still there was the same reason the labrum and cartilage needed to be repaired in the fist place. Not the FAI, that was fixed, but apparently the hip joint has very little blood supply (and the cartilage has none)... so healing is a very slow process. If the labrum is damaged significantly enough, it will not heal on its own. After surgery, the labrum is repaired, but still damaged (sewn together with sutures), thus it can take months (often a year or more) for full recovery. The pain after surgery is primarily caused by the inflammation around and in the hip. The pain for me resolved after the 6 month mark... so I would expect that the same will happen for you.... though for me, not entirely, which I will explain in a moment.

But first, let's talk about the hip pain. Based on what you have described, this is also likely similar to the pain I felt (and still feel). It feels like the thigh, but in my case is caused by the hip flexor... specifically tendinitis. Basically, my hip flexors (which were already shortened due to limited range of motion before the surgery) where stretched out when my leg was put into traction. This caused damage to the hip flexors. The PT I went to (who did not understand the protocol for FAI recovery) pushed my hip into positions it should never have been put into, further damaging the hip flexor. So the tendinitis was the end result.... with rest being the cure... well, a partial cure.

Okay, so why did my pain never fully resolve. Well, as I said, by the time the doc got in there to fix the FAI, the cartilage at the front of the hip was severely damaged, meaning the hip was already arthritic. Due to the location of the arthritis, the pain was felt in the front of the hip. It was mild at first (after the pain from the scope resolved), but over time got progressively worse. The thing with arthritis, is inflammation cases deterioration of the cartilage. So as the arthritis get worse, the inflammation increased, causing more damage to the cartilage, thus worsening the arthritis, causing more inflammation... and on and on. Even though my arthritis was "mild" according to the x-ray, I still felt progressively worsening pain. To be clear, the scope had me nearly pain free for about 3 years. After that the arthritis only progressed slowly for the next couple. Then, within a period of 6 months (back in 2017) it went from mild, to moderate, to severe. Apparently arthritis can be stable for many years, and then something happens, and in deteriorates very quickly.

So, what about you. Well, I am no doc... clearly... but I will reiterate what my scope doc told me (assuming your hip is already arthritic). A hip replacement is likely in your future. It may be a couple of years from now... it may be 20 years from now.... there is no way of knowing how quickly your hip will deteriorate... if it does at all. The good news is that the pain you are feeling is likely caused by inflammation (though you cannot rule out nerve pain, which I will address in just a moment), and will mostly or completely resolve in time as the structures of the hip heal (I am paraphrasing the doc by the way... so it is not verbatim).

So if I were you (and this is m opinion only), for me I would rest (because the structures of your hip need to heal... which takes time, and you likely have some damage to the surrounding muscles like the hip flexors from the traction which also needs to heal. Focus the PT on gentle stretches and strengthening... if it hurts, even a little bit when doing a PT stretch or exercise, do not push through it... that is you muscles/tendons telling you are going too far.

Okay, so before a conclude this long winded reply, I want to address nerve pain. Nerves are complex little guys which I do not fully understand. My nerve pain resolve almost completely after the scope. The doc felt this was likely do to reduced inflammation... but, he offered a second possibility... and again, I am going to paraphrase here. When you have limited ROM in the hip, the body compensates for, often by causing changes to your gait. It is why many folks with hip arthritis develop a progressively worsening limp. For some, like myself, the ROM becomes so restricted, that the body starts to move joints that are not supposed to move, just so you you can walk. In my case, the vertebrae took the brunt of this "unnatural movement". The L4/5 for sure, but also the S1 developed lumberaization (your SI joints should be fused, but my S1 was moving like a Lumbar vertebrae). So, the nerve pain I felt (and still feel) may actually have been cause by inflammation of the muscles around the vertebrae from over compensation. The doc said that there is just no way of knowing, but with increase ROM, there will be less compensation and inflammation, and the nerve pain should lessen over time... which it did... until the arthritis got bad.

One of the driving reasons I had a THR (besides lessening my pain and being able to walk without a severe limp) was to avoid developing arthritis in the lower back... something that my dad developed (he didn't have a THR until his late sixties).

Anyway, I hope this helps you. One thing that worked really well for the pain from the scope was the ice machine (Cold Rush Cold Therapy). I used it for years after the scope, and I believe it helped buy more time until I needed the THR. It developed a leak in a non replaceable part, so I am not using it after my THR (though I am considering buying another one... it is worth the money). The other thing that helped me was Advil... which I cannot take with the THR due to bone growth issues and blood thinners... but did wonders for pain with the scope.

Oh, one thing with the scope you will find (and I know many who have had a scope just for a labrum repair, and all have said the same thing). Warming up the hip, and icing it down after activity (like hockey, or running, or a day of hiking) is simply going to be part of your like from now on. The ache after activity is just something that will happen, but warming up the joint... and icing it down after almost completely eliminates any next day soreness.

Let me know if you want any more information (assuming you are still reading at this point :)... I will help any way I can.

Cheers
 
Hi @bethreads
Oh, one thing with the scope you will find (and I know many who have had a scope just for a labrum repair, and all have said the same thing). Warming up the hip, and icing it down after activity (like hockey, or running, or a day of hiking) is simply going to be part of your like from now on. The ache after activity is just something that will happen, but warming up the joint... and icing it down after almost completely eliminates any next day soreness.

Let me know if you want any more information (assuming you are still reading at this point :)... I will help any way I can.

Cheers

Thanks for this detailed reply, wonkyhipoy! It's good to hear you had some resolution of pain, though on a longer timeline. I've quoted this portion of your reply because I do generally ice in the evenings, and sometimes take an ice pack to bed, and wake up without pain just about every day. That's more than I could say before surgery, so in that way, I have seen improvement. I also think my labrum is likely the culprit.

I had FAI and it was my pincer causing the problems--so that was shortened up in my surgery. The x-rays look good, and I've had no bone overgrowth. My surgeon is pleased with how the bone looks. A MRI before surgery showed I had a torn labrum, but when the surgeon got into my joint with the camera, he said it wasn't really torn--he said it was "frayed," so unfortunately for me, the labrum needed to be resected (cut back) to get at the bone, then the labrum was reattached. Also, a CT scan showed the angle of my hip bones is pretty dramatic--and I am symmetrical, but have absolutely no pain with my left hip.

I have a strong suspicion that my labrum is the problem for me now--the fact that it had to be cut and reattached is different than what most people with this surgery describe--like you, most people have a badly torn or shredded labrum due to repetitive stress or a sports injury, or arthritis. I have no arthritis in my joint, either. I couldn't really identify an exact time that my hip started hurting, but I think I may have exacerbated the impingement or caused the labrum "fray" in my hip when I fell while cross-country skiing in early 2016. I fell down onto my right side very hard at least twice, and it was a while after this that I started complaining of hip pain when driving and after some activities. I am an avid walker, and love to do yoga at least a couple times a week (hour long classes), but don't run or do any organized sports where I'd get injured. My surgeon said he sees two types of folks with FAI--teenage dancers or other teens in sports, and people my age (30-40, I'm now 37) where the labrum has just worn out over time. But my surgery showed the labrum was not severely torn, but then it needed to be cut in order to fix the bone.

I'm hopeful that this will eventually get better. My range of motion has improved a lot, and I am hopeful I'll be able to try a gentle yoga class later this fall or winter, and my stamina for some light activity (walking, standing) has improved in the last month. I hope my employer continues to work with me, and that the standing desk will help me change postures more frequently so I can get back to working full time.
 
So if I were you (and this is m opinion only), for me I would rest (because the structures of your hip need to heal... which takes time, and you likely have some damage to the surrounding muscles like the hip flexors from the traction which also needs to heal. Focus the PT on gentle stretches and strengthening... if it hurts, even a little bit when doing a PT stretch or exercise, do not push through it... that is you muscles/tendons telling you are going too far.

Great advice!
Hope today is a good day!
 
This past week has been significantly better than previous weeks. I've had about 6-7 good days in terms of pain level. I'm still having intermittent deep groin pain, and the side of my leg/butt are weirdly sore, but I've been doing a few things:

1) daily upward dog/cobra type stretches (bending at the waist to bring my hip back)
2) mild hip stretch using a chair (leg bent, knee/shin on chair, slight stretch of joint)

I also ended up not taking pain reliever yesterday evening and was out late at a concert, which would normally have resulted in a lot of pain by the time I got home, but last night was very good in terms of pain. I'd say almost no joint pain, at all! I also skipped my morning dose of Tylenol today as an experiment and so far, so good. I have been icing the side of leg for that pain, and it's been helping.

I also got my sit/stand desk and my husband's going to help bring it to my office today so it can be set up next week. I'm cautiously optimistic since I've had multiple good days in a row with very manageable soreness levels. :)
 
Hopefully the winds of change are blowing. Great news!
May it only get better. Let us know how you like your sit /stand desk after you try it for awhile.
Wishing you a nice holiday weekend.
@bethreads
 
An update: today is 6 months post-op. Surgery was April 17, and the last few weeks have been the best yet. I've had multiple days where I can go hours completely forgetting that I had surgery!

I am back to work full time, but still doing some work from home each day. This has been helpful when I get more tired/sore, and can go home and work from my couch/laptop for a few hours. I think I am more productive with multiple rest breaks, as well.

I am still dealing with some muscle soreness in my thigh and glutes, but I think that will continue to improve as I'm able to exercise more. I am doing a bit of physical therapy, since I started seeing a PT for some neck issues I've been having, and he's been very accommodating of my hip while giving me exercises for my neck.

I have to say thank you again for this forum. Without finding it, I'm not sure how I would have felt--the posters here really helped me feel that I am not some weird, abnormal person or that my surgery "failed." I am very hopeful that I'll be back to yoga and some cross-country skiing by the new year. :yes!:

#Testimonials
 
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@bethreads :wave: Good to see your post! At 6 months, their is still healing happening and I myself am saw alot of improvement from 6 months to a year out.
Once we are back to work, it is hard to remember we need to still baby ourselves a bit...
Now you can work on strengthening and I certainly think you will be back to life in a big way.:ok:
 
I have been back to work for full 8 hour days since mid-Oct. when my employer stopped accommodating any working from home. This has been a very difficult and painful transition. I've tried a different office chair for more reclining at work, heat, ice, resting on the couch at work during my 20 minute breaks, etc. but nothing is quite alleviating the pain the way working from home was (with longer rest breaks between periods of productivity).

I am also now wondering if my pain is possibly from my SI joint and not the hip. The pain in the joint area is much improved, but the pain in my deep groin, side of leg (same area as bursitis), and glute is worse than ever. It's a burning, stinging, and pinching feeling, and the pain is there even upon waking up.

At what point would a second opinion be recommended? I may just call my surgeon's office this week to ask if any diagnostic could be done to determine if this pain is different than the hip joint pain.
 
I'm sorry for your longsuffering, Beth.
I'd seek a second opinion now. You mentioned the word "pain" quite a few times in your post. Why wait if you're suffering, uncomfortable at work, unable to find relief, have no diagnosis or plan for resolution? It's been 7 months now that you've been struggling, without relief or answers.
I'd persevere until I found out exactly what I was dealing with and formulated a plan of action.
I wish you the best as you move forward. Please stay in touch. We're here for you.
@bethreads
 
After trying another round of very moderate physical therapy late last fall for my back/hip and seeing no real benefit, I quit and just stuck with yoga for a few months over the winter. My hip pain has improved from the intense level of pain from surgery, but I still have quite a bit of joint pain and some days, it's not better than before surgery. :/

I made the decision in March to contact Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota about getting an appointment there. It's not too far from where I live, so figured it was worth a shot for a second opinion. I felt overwhelmed by the number of orthopedic surgeons in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area who do hip arthroscopy, and some of the highest rated ones I found had very specific, complicated physical therapy requirements for post-op that just seem crazy to me. :(

Mayo staff were very nice and got all my records and images for me, and let me know the wait time for appointments was 6-9 months, so I figured I'd be lucky to hear from them in early 2020. But then I got a call last week from them that they can fit me in, so I have an appointment for Nov. 21. I'll see Dr. Rafael Sierra and have new X-rays and a CT scan. I figure a second opinion can't hurt (except monetarily, but I was pleasantly surprised that Mayo has an office who can give price estimates and they were not really any different than what I paid nearer to home).

It's now been 16 months since my original surgery in April, 2018 and still having pain and range of motion issues that are impacting my daily life and normal activity, so kind of just want to know if there's anything more that I should do/try, or just know that this is as good as it gets.
 
Hi there,
I'm sorry to read that you're still struggling so many months post op. I hope you find answers through your appt at Mayo. Please keep in touch and let us know how it goes.
Wishing you comfort as you seek answers and relief.
@bethreads
 
@bethreads, so happy you got an earlier appointment please keep us posted. Hope things improve for you soon.
 
Hi all, checking in after my Mayo Clinic appointment yesterday. I have to say it was pretty intimidating/scary to go to Rochester for this, but I'm so glad I did, and so thankful to have a world-class clinic/hospital in my state (Minnesota). I had new imaging done for my hip (x-rays of my hip and a CT scan of my back/hip/knee) in the early morning and then a noon consultation with orthopedic surgeon Dr. Rafael Sierra: https://www.mayoclinic.org/biographies/sierra-rafael-j-m-d/bio-20054877

He essentially told me that my previous arthroscopic surgery failed to correct my impingement and that a much more dramatic surgery would be needed to correct it (open hip surgery). He showed me my x-ray and CT scan and demonstrated the issue and how he would correct it. He spent about an hour answering all of our questions and said we had great questions. :dancy:

This appointment was helpful in many ways--I now know that no surgeon could have corrected my hip with arthroscopy (it's simply not possible). I had doubts about my surgeon selection after some thoughtless but well-meaning comments from a few people, but Dr. Sierra basically said that it was unlikely any other surgeon would have seen this issue and know how to correct it. He also confirmed my suspicion that I have a permanent nerve injury from arthroscopy, but that I am lucky it is simply numbness on the top of my thigh, not pain. I now have some decisions to make--whether or not to have him do surgery, and if so, when.

I have to say it was a huge relief to find out that further surgery could alleviate the pain I feel every day. I don't love the idea of another surgery, of course, but I'm seriously considering it, and thankful that it's open enrollment for both my employer and my husband's employer, so that we can make a good choice about health insurance for potential surgery in 2020 or beyond. Also, everyone at the Mayo Clinic was friendly, kind, and helpful. Two staff who happened to be on an elevator helped us find our way to the imaging center when we looked lost (there are both skyways and underground tunnels connecting buildings at the clinic and nearby so we took a combination of those to avoid the rainy, cold November weather)! Everything ran on time and on schedule, and this helped with the anxiety I felt about the situation.

I have to again say thank you to this community for encouraging me to listen to my body and my pain when nobody else (other than my first surgeon) really understood that. No amount of physical therapy, stretching, etc. will fix my hip! My bones are just extra special. :heehee:
 
Even though the idea of a major surgery can't sound good to you, the idea that they found a reason for your ongoing pain and that it can be improved with surgery is good news! I have known several people who have gone to the Mayo for both evaluation and follow up, and every one of them has commented on how patient centered and friendly they are. It sounds like you had a very comprehensive appointment with a highly skilled doctor. :flwrysmile:
 
:wave: @bethreads
Sounds like you have Finally gotten some answers and you sound very confident with your OS.
You've had such struggles and it has to be such a relief to be validated and have a plan.:tada:
He essentially told me that my previous arthroscopic surgery failed to correct my impingement and that a much more dramatic surgery would be needed to correct it (open hip surgery)
Would love to know what the OS needs to do to get this corrected...sounds like not hip replacement?
I'm glad you were able to go into the appointment with great questions and happy to know you feel we played a part in helping you.:friends:

Please let your Bonesmart pals know when your surgery is scheduled...you know we are rooting for you.
 
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